Rev Ops Revolution: Building an Agile Business EcosystemMax Rudman (00:07)
Hi everyone, welcome to our webinar, Rev Ops Revolution, Building an Agile Business Ecosystem with Product Driven Operations.
 
Quick slide on introductions. My name is Max Rudman I am the CEO of Prodly, a leading Salesforce DevOps company. Previously, I founded a company called SteelBrick that built a native CPQ configure price code solution that was ultimately acquired by Salesforce in 2016. So I have quite a bit of experience both with Salesforce and RevOps more generally.
 
And I am delighted to have with me, Vernon Keenan. Vernon, why don't you introduce yourself?
 
Vernon Keenan (00:50)
Sure, Max, thank you. Yeah, my name is Vernon Keenan. I've been in the ecosystem for, well, 30 years, five years longer than most people. That's because I was hired by Mark Benioff at Salesforce at Oracle way back in 1995 and had the pleasure of working for him and with him in the Telegraph Hill house as a consultant and onto one market. So, I've been tracking Salesforce for a long time.
 
I got into the DevOps realm because a Salesforce developer found some things I couldn't do in Salesforce so I branched off into the cloud-native world, the go Kubernetes, JavaScript, all of the way that the applications are built, learned all about that kind of DevOps stuff. And I'm trying to bring that knowledge here over into SalesforceDevOps. I've had the pleasure of working with Max for a number of years as a
 
As a key vendor in this space. I'm also happy today. We're going to be talking about my new book called Bridgeting Bridging the New Digital Divide, empowering business users in the age of AI and DevOps. And here we're going to hopefully bring some key insights that are going to help you run your business better. Isn't that right, Max?
 
Max Rudman (02:14)
Absolutely. This is all about helping you run your business better making your business more agile and ultimately driving revenue and shareholder value. So really, really exciting topic for me personally. And so I'm really, really thrilled to have you on here with me, Vernon to discuss it and share our insights. All right, well, let's dig into it.
 
So our agenda for today is as follows. We're gonna talk about business agility. What is it and why is it important to have it? We'll talk about RevOps as the nervous system of your business ecosystem. Vernon will give his introduction to this concept of product-driven operations, PDO. We'll talk about how RevOps utilizes PDO.
 
Vernon will suggest a PDO scorecard by which he can measure your maturity. And we'll also talk about the role of data in RevOps and PDO. And we'll leave you with some thoughts about how to set up for scale and future growth.
 
Vernon Keenan (03:22)
So yeah, let's dig into it, Max. Think about the very first thing we want to understand
 
The need for business agility, why are we doing this? Well, I think right now we're confronted with a giant upturning in the IT infrastructure landscape with AI. So in terms of enterprise AI, using AI to sell, using AI to build, there's a whole new revolution happening. And for you to participate in this means that you're going to enable yourself to be on the right side of the new digital divide.
 
So Max, why don't you just kind of explain to us what it is in terms of business agility and other things that we need to develop in order to cross this new digital divide?
 
Max Rudman (04:08)
Yeah, thanks for the intro and setting this up. Business agility is super important. We've heard about digital transformations for several years now. And why is it important to digitally transform itself? Well, it's exactly for the reasons that you mentioned, We're at the precipice of this major advancement in technology and business opportunities that it enables with AI.
 
Guess what AI needs, AI needs clean data and how do you need clean data? Well, you need automation. But beyond that, let's just step up from sort of AI, right? Like why is digital transformation so important? Well, that's because the pace of change has accelerated dramatically in the last several years, and decades, right? There's a constant market disruption, right?
 
There are new competitors and there are customer demands and the customers now, the millennials and all this new generation, right? They've grown up. Gen Z's, all right. I'm not up to my generation. It's all of them seem like they're pretty impatient, right? They're digitally native, right? They've grown up with all these digital technologies. They're used to real-time responses and getting what they need, right? Online.
 
Vernon Keenan (05:14)
think they're the Gen Z's actually, Max.
 
Max Rudman (05:34)
time. There's also this rapid technological change, right? We talked about this new wave of technological innovation that AI will unlock, right? But one thing that we can count on is that the technology changes are constant. Right? We are talking about sort of customer expectations, right? Are changing right now. You know, customers expect real-time feedback. They expect to be able to transact.
 
And engage with your brand and whatever channels they like, right? Whether it's a call or online or what have you. And so what this all means is that you need to be agile in your response, right? So when anything changes in your business or your market or the customer's expectations of you, you need to be able to respond faster. And order for you to be able to respond faster, you have to be able to make changes to your business systems.
 
Is your business faster, right? So that's what business agility is about here. It's a broader agility of your business and its response to market and competitive changes, but it's also the the tactical aspect of it, which is being able to make changes to your business systems faster.
 
Vernon Keenan (06:51)
Okay, so moving on to the next slide, let's talk about how we're building this RevOps environment or RevOpsdriven environment that gives us more business agility max. Tell us more details.
 
Max Rudman (07:07)
Yeah, so there are sort of several components to that, right? First and foremost is about cross-function and running your operations in a cross-functional manner, right? So previously have marketing operations, MOPs, you'd have sales operations, sales ops, had success operations, and the market leading companies now recognize the need to
 
To have holistic support operations organizations that support your entire go-to-market motion across the different departments, these different disciplines of marketing.
 
Vernon Keenan (07:52)
Isn't that part of the customer 360 thing too, to have all those inputs working?
 
Max Rudman (07:58)
Absolutely. Absolutely. It is part of that customer 360, which is sort of the, I think the name that Salesforce uses for its customer success platform now, to kind of highlight the need in the digital transformation era to have a holistic view of your customer really across all their interactions, whether it be marketing, sales, customer success, and ultimately service.
 
All so that's one aspect of it is this holistic operation to support your go-to-market motion. The other is really focused on more holistic revenue management, right? To manage revenue through its entire life cycle, right? So before it was like, quote to cash, Now salesforce is talking about the product to cash, right? So again, it's like now it's roping in even more right now, its product management organization is part of that.
 
Go-to-market motion, which, you know, of course, makes a lot of sense, right? When you these products, right? You have to think about how you go to market with them, right? And so it goes all the way from that to collecting cash.
 
Vernon Keenan (08:58)
Mm-hmm.
 
I've always thought of DevOps and revenue lifecycle management, or I've started to think about it more as a digital transformation tool almost, you know, it's like a mission, a reason why you're doing a digital transformation seems to make it more tangible.
 
Max Rudman (09:23)
Exactly. Not to steal your thunder, you're to talk about revenue being the product. But yeah, exactly. What is the purpose of a go-to-market organization is to generate revenue. And so that is the number one outcome, the number one product that all these ops teams are responsible for. So fourth, a third tenet is data-driven decision-making.
 
Especially in this year of digitalization, mean, your business is generating reams of data, right? All the way from transactional data, know, point of point-of-sale data. You know, if you're a SaaS product, right, you probably have product usage data that the product is generating, right? A ton, a ton of data. And so, which of course unlocks a massive opportunity for you not only to have our JIs we talked about but even just.
 
To run your business in a more analytical fashion, right? To let data drive your decision-making. But of course, for that to happen, right? You need to make sure that the data is clean, that the data is consistent across your different systems, and different departments, right? And this is where it's a good segway into the fourth coretone of RevOps as a nervous system.
 
Your business ecosystem is breaking down the silos. Really the whole concept of RevOps is fundamentally built around that, that you're kind of combining all the different previously disparate operations teams that supported revenue into one team with one holistic approach and one set of systems.
 
Right, so Vernon, you pioneered this concept of a product-driven operations PDO. Could you maybe tell our listeners, our audience about what you mean by that and why it's important?
 
Vernon Keenan (11:24)
Sure, think I put a nice title on it, but it's not necessarily a new concept because, by product-driven operations, the primary concept I'm trying to get across is that you treat IT projects instead as software products. And by that, for me, it's moved into a special realm of
 
Trying to figure out how people build software products, kind of at Prodly, for example, or another SalesforceISV, or how does Salesforce itself develop products and put them in the marketplace and make sure they're successful? I just want to take those lessons that we have here in building successful software products and embody organizations or enable organizations.
 
To do the same thing, to have responsive teams that are able to deliver products across their companies or internal companies in the same manner, the same efficiencies. So let's kind of dive into that a little bit. And I think, the main thing is that you want to engage in essentially an agile mindset and
 
Continuous improvement ability based on data that you're getting from your users, from your development activities, and from other trusted sources to help you make decisions on how to continuously improve your product. So this is, I'm not necessarily a proponent of the agile methodologies straight out of the book.
 
But I'm certainly a proponent of checking with your users early to make sure you're building the right thing. So I think that to have that kind of relationship with your users, to have the mentality that I'm going to create product market fit and other words that we use here in Silicon Valley to describe success in developing products is a good thing to help you develop those capabilities.
 
Now, another thing that the concept works really well at is to create cross-functional collaboration. So these teams, the reason why I mentioned that they're not necessarily a new concept is because Forrester calls these things fusion teams. And I think Gartner has a word for this as well, but it's the idea of creating cross-functional teams.
 
They are able to work together to solve the problems with adequate representation of various stakeholders or development organizations or platform organizations, all within one team. And then within that team, you have a permanent management structure where you have program managers or product managers who are responsible and hopefully incentivized for the success.
 
Of their product within an organization. So everything I just described is how a company like Prodlyactually goes about developing products, testing them, putting them into the marketplace, and developing solutions. And just to reiterate an earlier point, a key aspect of the PDO concept we're communicating here is to have continuous data coming in so you can measure yourself.
 
And we're going to talk about a scorecard so you can do self-evaluations to see how you go on the PDO journey. So I think understanding your metrics, how to ingest them, and how to analyze them is definitely key. So I think we're going to move on to the next slide and we're going to talk about how RevOps uses the PDO concept.
 
Max Rudman (15:39)
Right. So, you know, I think it's really like a super interesting concept, right? I mean, you're basically saying, right, how software companies, how technology companies develop their products instructive and helpful to think about how internal teams can deliver outcomes, business outcomes in their business systems. Right. And so
 
Let's think about sort of maybe drawing some parallels between how things work in technology and product organization and the R &D organization of a software technology vendor and how this might show up and be what the parallels might be to a RevOps team managing go-to-market business systems. All so one is sort of this idea of integrated,
 
revenue processes in the same way that when you think about an R &D organization, a technology organization, there's product management that's responsible as the liaison between the end users and the engineering team that's responsible for defining requirements. The engineers and the developers code it. Then you have your infrastructure team, the operations team who is running the infrastructure.
 
Handles the deployments and ongoing maintenance of your probably SaaS application. And then there's obviously the executive team that sort of oversees that and collects reporting and analytics. So in much the same way, a RevOps team, in my mind, that's kind of like the business systems version of the product management team. They're the liaison between
 
Between the end users and the IT team, which is like an engineering team, and the infrastructure team, right, who actually does the development and running of the infrastructure to support the changes? Right, and so you want to make sure that you bring the two together. What you don't want is your RevOps team throwing change requests over the wall, right, and then it going into a black box. Right, you need that constant feedback loop and...
 
To your point, don't necessarily need to use the kind of agile scrum process, right? Then do daily scrums. If you want to, but that's not the important part. The important part is agility, that constant feedback loop, right? And iterating on revenue as your product. So what does that mean? Well, right, you deploy CPQ, let's say, as an example.
 
Vernon Keenan (18:23)
Mm-hmm.
 
Max Rudman (18:29)
Okay, great. So you probably had some outcomes, and some objectives in mind when you undertook that project, right? Maybe it was to drive up the margin or maybe it was to reduce, you know, increase the attach rate of certain products. Right? So, great. Let's do an MVP. Let's do the minimum sort of viable product to get us going and to go live and let's iterate from there, right? And we may uncover some things that we didn't think about.
 
And so maybe we'll go back and we'll make some changes to the CPQ implementation, maybe put on some more rules or create new products, new bundles to support our objectives. Right. So very much like a technology organization would iterate on the product, right? You kind of start with MVP and based on what you believe is going to produce a value forend users based in your conversations with them. Things change during the development.
 
Things change in the market. Sometimes the users tell you one thing, but they really mean another. So that's why it's really super important to have that iterative motion, right? Or you kind of do the least amount of work possible to get to a meaningful outcome. And then you iterate from there. And just like in the technology organization, right? It's really important to get aligned on goals and outcomes, right? You probably write stories, which sort of...
 
You know, talk about the functional, about the pieces of functionality from the user's perspective and the outcomes that, you know, they want to accomplish. Right. So in the same way, an around ops team, kind of quarterbacking this whole iterative process of making changes to go to market business systems should get aligned on the goals. Right. Again, if you're undergoing a CPQ project, could be, you know, driving up margins, could be increasing attach rates, it could be what have you.
 
But it's really important to get everybody aligned and agreed upon those goals so that you know what to drive towards.
 
Vernon Keenan (20:36)
think, Max, I think it's really interesting that what you're talking about here is, again, what's old is new again. I think you look at the history of business and we've had various cycles of this type of activity going on, going all the way back to the sixties and seventies with the Toyota way. And then we had lean manufacturing come out of that. That kind of got us into this just-in-time world that we're that we're today. And there was
 
You know, other, other innovation kind of taking lessons from technology, you know, like the technology of, of building a car to, you know, apply that to management. And here we're talking about the thing I think is exciting and, and viable for our listeners is that you could take the lessons that you've learned in technology.
 
And apply them to business to create more efficiency, better communication, better group operations, and in the end, better agility.
 
Max Rudman (21:42)
Absolutely. What's really interesting, know, it's a bit of a digression, but I think it's, you know, kind of you talking about that Toyota way and, know, and some of the advances in manufacturing processes and how that sort of, you know, inspired, you know, the agile methodologies in the technology world. And now we are kind of going back and forth between tech and sort of the virtual and the physical, like one of the interesting trends that I've
 
Was listening to some podcasts the other day, right? We were talking about, you know, speaking of your Nvidia graphics core, right? Nvidia is all about sort of obviously enabling all these AI workloads and graphics, right? But one of the interesting spaces that, you know, they are talking about enabling one of the interesting use cases is this simulation, right? Of kind of call it the physical world, right? Or rather than like you...
 
Vernon Keenan (22:34)
Yes.
 
Max Rudman (22:37)
manufacturing something, going straight to manufacturing to test a concept, you can actually now simulate what that physical artifact will do and look like in a physical world without ever having to go into manufacturing. And you can kind of all simulate that in their software platform. So I think it's really interesting because it's like basically it's taking the same concept and not just applying it.
 
Business systems, are still virtual changes, but you can actually take this well beyond RevOps and really apply it across the business, even the manufacturing parts of the business.
 
Vernon Keenan (23:14)
Absolutely. With RevOps we're developing mechanisms and actions and things that make things happen within a business. And I think you're developing that as an overlay that could be accessed through AI was probably one of the directions we're going.
 
Max Rudman (23:34)
Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about how one can measure their maturity with respect to this product-driven operations concept?
 
Vernon Keenan (23:46)
Sure. think one thing I want to call out is when you're product-driven operations and also RevOps together, you want to keep a number of metrics going. One of them is kind of like a basic RevOpsmetrics scorecard, where revenue is the product and you're able to look at business performance and
 
That is if you think about the the CFO, the chief revenue officers, and the CEOs, what do they want to see out of out of this operation? How are they measuring the effectiveness of using RevOps to develop your business? I think that that's got a whole topic associated with it. I think what we've got here is a kind of a product development organization.
 
The maturity scorecard is defined more for the practitioners of it. So let me just kind of go through it. You want to ask yourself these questions and you also want to be able to express your degree of achievement in each one of these areas. And then you want to track that on a quarterly or biannual kind of basis.
 
And again, in the book, I've got worksheets and more detailed information on how you can actually use the scorecards on your own. So going into this, I'd love for people to use them and give me some feedback in the near future. So I think you want to rate yourself and how effectively the organization prioritizes and understands users' needs.
 
And that's got to be through some sort of feedback mechanism or some sort of way of talking to your end users to understand it via a third party so you can understand how they perceive your organization. And I think you need to be able to evaluate your current data maturity. And this would be things like, how far are you on the customer 360roadmap?
 
Have you done things like create the identifier that can be used across clouds or across silos? To what degree are all of your organizations creating that enterprise architecture that you need to achieve good AI and DevOps functionality? And I think in general, how is your AI readiness?
 
And that's more than just connecting clouds together. It's the quality of what's going on inside of those clouds. So how well is your metadata defined? Think this is a, I'll never forget, the conference or the earnings call with Mark Benioff, where he mentioned metadata. It must've been 15 or 20 times, where the sum total he had mentioned and previous Salesforce earnings calls was zero.
 
So all of a sudden metadata is a key salesforce advantage. But a lot of people have created organs, kind of ignoring the documentation aspects of your metadata. So I think that is, that is a key aspect of AI readiness and also the ability to execute the orchestrations that are able to implement things like agent force.
 
Or other either embedded features, AI features within Salesforce, or even overlay AI features with, you know, services such as Glean and other overlay AI companies that can read data in and out of your Salesforce org. You have to be ready for that in terms of how well can those systems understand the context of your org. Context is everything.
 
Cross-functional collaboration is something to measure how well have you created that fusion team. Is the product team operating with a good mix of all of the people that you need to work on that? And how are your digital skills and literacy, education, and competency within your own department going? That needs to be measured to help equip employees with the skills needed to thrive in this kind of product-led organization.
 
Also, how well are your PD principles actually integrated with your revenue, lifecycle management, and implementations? So this is something you need a measurement for and to measure the dynamics of how well these techniques are actually being implemented. How well have you transformed your organization to be more of a lean organization where it's more metrics-oriented and more performance-oriented?
 
And able to measure your outcomes better.
 
Max Rudman (28:59)
Yep. And, you know, just to be clear, I think obviously we talked a lot about Salesforce, given our backgrounds, but all of these concepts, right?
 
Anything is any business system this is applicable to.
 
Vernon Keenan (29:21)
Yeah, so I think I just kind of drilled into it, but I think in our next slide, Max, we're going to talk about the role of data in RevOps and our PDO concept.
 
Max Rudman (29:32)
Right. So data is absolutely critical as we talked about doing those little transformations to future technological innovation and unlocking those innovations like AI today and who knows what will be tomorrow. And it's also very critical to that culture of agility, that culture of iteration and constant improvement that business agility demands.
 
And so one of the aspects that is really important that data enables is these real-time insights. So being able to measure the impact of your business in real-time and the changes that you're making is super important. So again, imagine your
 
Your revenue lifecycle management process, right? Something like quoting, right? Which is of course near and dear to my heart, right? So being able to track the margins and the average deal sizes and whatever other metrics you want to track in real-time is supercritical to the decisions to make or not make changes to your product catalog, to your pricing, to what have you.
 
Right. So, in this culture of data-driven decisions is obviously super important and that obviously goes well beyond, know, CPQ or even revenue lifecycle management or even RevOps, right? Again, this is more broadly applicable than DevOps and Salesforce, right? Anything you can apply these same lessons, these same concepts too.
 
To anything in your business.
 
Vernon Keenan (31:32)
Max, can we pull out development metrics or maybe Dora metrics to kind of help us in this process? Is that part of the picture here?
 
Max Rudman (31:41)
Yeah, I think so. Mean, when you're certainly talking about, you know, making changes to business systems, right? So, those of you who don't know, there is a group at Google that sort of measured the impact of automated, you know, deployment, you know, DevOps processes organizations and it's things like, you know, the average time to deploy a change, you know, that the failure rate of changes, right?
 
How often does change result in the bug? And there's a whole slew of these metrics then to link and help you. But what I find is actually more interesting is something that Gartner has been talking about, this value stream, right, metrics. I think they're more interesting for the, certainly in the context of what we're talking about here today, which is business agility.
 
And the reason why they're more interesting to me is that they take a more expansive view, right? It's not just like, quickly could you get the change once it's been done into production? How long did it take you to deploy it? And what is your success rate with those changes? It takes a more expansive view and looks at, hey, how long did it take you to go from ideation to getting the change in production? And that's a much more interesting question.
 
To ask and a much more interesting metric to drive, hopefully down, right, than how long it took you to deploy something.
 
Vernon Keenan (33:12)
Yeah, I think we're talking about the impact of our concept of product-driven operations impacting business agility. Think this is kind of the essence of it, that we are looking at trying to be more scientific and more measured about identifying parts of our processes that could have required more attention or
 
To find out another part of our process that seems to be working well so that we could maybe understand why that's happening. It's these metrics, real-life metrics, such as revenue, I think joining up with these development-oriented metrics, I think is very powerful.
 
Max Rudman (34:02)
Absolutely. And I'm going to skip over one here, right? But this kind of goes in that continuous feedback loop, right? The faster you can get the change from ideation to go live to production, the faster you're to get that feedback.
 
Did the change make the impact that I was anticipating or did it not, I need to go and iterate some more, right? So it's sort of like this virtuous cycle of faster changes, faster time to value, but also faster, shorter feedback loops. And then of course you can start making a new set of changes faster, right? And so I've been out of order here, but last but not least is right again.
 
Clean data, is dependent on automation and integrations and this data-driven culture is going to drive a lot of value for you in terms of feeding predictive analytics tools, right? Or even this new wave of generative AI, right? All of it, all of it depends on clean data, or to put it another way, garbage in, garbage out, right? So.
 
Just having data is not enough. Need to make sure it's clean, it's accurate because otherwise, in some ways it's worse. Having bad data is even worse than having no data at all, right? Because it's like, you're getting inaccurate, misleading recommendations from your business analytics engines or you're gonna get garbage and hallucinations from your AI if you haven't fed it that data.
 
Very good. All right, so let's talk a little bit about how we scale this PDO concept and this business agility in your business systems for future growth. So Vernon, what are your thoughts on this?
 
Vernon Keenan (35:55)
Mm-hmm.
 
Yeah, I think like any kind of revolutionary thing in an organization, it needs to be managed properly. It needs to be piloted tested and scaled appropriately. Certainly not an organization-wide change immediately, but I think it is important to use an important project for something like this.
 
So you want to create product-driven operations. Think RevOps is a good choice for this because you want to use the best available techniques and the most agile and, and fastest techniques in order to impact, some of your more impactful operations. So I wouldn't be using this for like, an employee, an internal employee toolfirst necessarily. Would try to challenge me.
 
Having a plan to implement product-driven operations in RevOps over a certain time period. Then I think the way that you get there is to kind of reiterate some of the points we already made, which is your agile mindset, meaning that you are able to talk to your customers, you're able to change the product, you're able to develop solutions that listen to
 
Your end users and the people responsible for producing revenue. You've got innovations and other things that you can bring into, play here to advance your products. So this also kind reiterates the need to have your org ready and your data ready for innovation. That means going back and having clean data, good metadata, and good enterprise architecture. And of course, the customer-centric growth where you're, you look at everything.
 
About what you're growing and how that is focused on customer success. This translates into customer success, translates into the requirements, translates into how you're driving your organization through a product-oriented mindset. And then I think once that has happened, it should start to permeate your organization. It should start to be a model.
 
If it's driving revenue growth in your company, then this is something that should be able to drive product development productivity, should be able to drive marketing productivity. Just about any kind of business operation, I think, can be recast or have an insight derived from a product-driven operation perspective.
 
Max Rudman (38:53)
Alright, let's now maybe talk a little bit about the action that one can take. So Vernon, do you have this PDOscorecard available anywhere that our audience, our listeners can take a look at?
 
Vernon Keenan (38:55)
So.
 
That's right. People will be able to go to Salesforce DevOps dot com slash book and have a landing page there where they can download the book and you can download the scorecards.
 
Max Rudman (39:22)
or devops.com or .net
 
Vernon Keenan (39:25)
dot net salesforce DevOps dot net slash book.
 
Max Rudman (39:27)
Right. Very cool. Awesome.
 
Vernon Keenan (39:31)
And you'll be able to do that. And I think there's something else going on too, right, Max?
 
Max Rudman (39:39)
Yeah, and so if you are ready to start your journey towards business agility, particularly business agility in your go-to-market systems, please come talk to us. This is really our mission at Prodly to build an end-to-end application lifecycle management platform that connects business operations and IT together to accelerate change delivery cycles.
 
We, Vernon, you're also finishing up your book on this topic and it should be available for download soon. Very cool. And I think we will obviously make it available on our site and send an email to everyone on our mailing list. So if you're interested in getting a copy of that, please sign up for a Proudly newsletter.
 
Vernon Keenan (40:17)
Very soon, certainly by the end of the year.
 
Max Rudman (40:37)
I imagine it will be published on Vernon's site of Salesforce DevOps.net, correct?
 
Vernon Keenan (40:45)
That's right, and you can always find me on LinkedIn. I'm easy to find there. And be sure to follow me and communicate with me there. Can't wait to hear what you think about this idea.
 
Max Rudman (40:56)
Same here, am at mrudman on LinkedIn. So please find me there or on X, I was gonna say Twitter, but it's Xnow. And last but not least, we're gonna be firing up a RevOps community on LinkedIn for like-minded individuals. Also if you're interested in joining that, please ping me on LinkedIn or sign up for our mailing list and we'll...
 
We'll send you the details when they're available.
 
Vernon Keenan (41:31)
Excellent, Max. This was awesome. Ihope to inspire some productivity out there.
 
Max Rudman (41:37)
Yeah, I really enjoyed our conversation, Vernon Thanks so much for joining me here and sharing your wisdom with our audience. And thanks, everyone, for joining us and spending some time with us on this topic. And we look forward to continuing the conversation on all kinds of channels. Thank you all.
 
Vernon Keenan (41:59)
Bye.
 
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